Is there any way you can vector me through? Its about attitude, and my only (very generous) defense of this pilots terrible attitude is that all of us are more tense and reactive these days with the covid pandemic, elections, riots, BLM, and other socio-political upheavals were dealing with globally. He let his situational awareness slip, not a good thing. For specific information, you may request a copy of . Sometimes ATC attitude causes the problems. The F-15 and F-16 have to go over twice that. Ive dealt the entering class B many times. My local airport is RDU. The requirements for us to enter Bravo airspace are spelled out with extreme clarity in the FARs; this one dickhead decided to ignore those requirements. Also in this case, N1NR is crossing directly into the path of other aircraft's landing approach (2 Southwest airplanes at that moment were landing). I looked back over it, and finally saw the one you mentioned, somehow missed it before. Some of the penalties of pilot deviation can be no action, a warning notice or letter of correction, certificate suspension, civil penalties, retraining, and even certificate revocation. Your request is assigned to the office listed below: Federal Aviation Administration Contact: Amelia McGillWestern-Pacific Region (424) 405-7221Flight Standards Division, AWP-200777 S. Aviation Blvd.El Segundo, CA 90245. Please refer to the above referenced number on all future correspondence regarding this request. He could have declared, he could have said he has a medical emergency, heck he could have said all sorts of things. * For those reading this forum long after June 2020, this is a time where law enforcement organizations (LEOs) across the US are being told to stop killing minorities. Get Alerts. This leads me to believe that a medical problem or hypoxia or something like that might (emphasis, _might__) have been a factor. He should AT LEAST be suspended, and frankly, given his behavior, I have no issue with his losing it. Then he flew back to Torrance the next day. ATC: "N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. This will come out in time. Get the stick out of your asses. Yeah, this whole sick daughter thing sounds like so much after action excuse making. She was far better to him than a lot of NY approach controllers are to good pilots on a good day (and I like NY approach, by the way). "LAS: "No"N731NR: "Yes! To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is beyond my ability to grasp. . He just flat out refused. Not saying that he should yell at him, but apologizing seemed a bit odd. This guy is a real threat to himself and others. I'm not so sure she would know how to "buy a clue"!? If you read what I wrote with an open mind and still think I have a stick up my ass, go read up on Kobe Bryant the basketball legend no longer with us because someone buckaroo'd it. Caller - is he available, It should have gone 1NR, please exit the Bravo. N1NR answers back that "he's flying". The Ultimate Guide On How To Become An Airline Pilot. Eg. Another pilot chimes in with his thoughts. It causes paperwork (at the very least) on both sides and is also distracting from other important duties. airworthiness of an aircraft or the current aircraft configuration. LAS: "N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. Whether BR was cleared or not he was tracked and being separated. Result - IP and my Mom who normally ran the business in Dads absence got back at the same time. N731NR Aircraft Registration Aircraft Summary Summary 1980 CESSNA P210N Fixed wing single engine (6 seats / 1 engine) Owner WIFE APPROVED LLC TORRANCE , CA, US Airworthiness Class Standard/Normal Serial Number P21000509 Engine CONT MOTOR TSIO-520 SER (Reciprocating) Horsepower: 300 Weight Less than 12,500lbs Speed 141mph Mode S Code The FARs couldn't be more clear on this situation. For starters, she let him wander into bravo and didn't kick him out until he was well inside. They got a full 2/3 of their pilots certificated!! This request is not currently in perfected status. Your feedback is important in helping us keep our community safe. He should have declared an emergency when denied entry into Bravo. I, at times, if the weather is good enough, cancelled IFR..continuing on my own. Want the latest investigative and FOIA news? From available ATC communications, it appears this particular pilot either forgot to make the request, or thought he made the request to get permission. Bravo airspace, like Ben said, is the airspace around major airports in the country. I'd like to know more about the outcome. At the end, it seems like there was at least one transmission we didn't hear where this pilot was giving "his side of the story" to Henderson Ground, hence that controller apologizing to him. My father was an Air Traffic Controller when the accident happened over San Diego in 1979 (not the one on duty when the accident occurred) so I know just as much about the history of this airspace as you claim to know, maybe even more. entering airspace without authorization). Really when you hit "submit" you should have not. CTO (Control Tower Operator) with AS Degree in ATC. This will help to ensure that you are fully prepared for whatever happens next. Thanks. We cannot possibly explain reasoning behind every denial of service at the time it happens. 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately"N731NR (whining): "I've been talking to you the whole time. ATC either turns him around or gives him a better heading. like this one. Second, yes, people make mistakes, and when someone tells you "Hey you made a mistake here's Karen: My reliable bet is that sometime between approach switching the aircraft to tower and the time the phone number is read, the pilot gave the tower controller a sob story. But you'd think that someone displaying this much attitude and disrespect for critical rules would have shown his true colors and been denied a license much earlier. And, when pilot deviation notification procedures were first added to the ATC manual in 1995, the procedure and phraseology were substantially similar to the pertinent provisions of Notice I wish there was a portal where we could interject and tell the FAA to shove one up this guy's six. I live under the approach and departure path to MIA, so I constantly have ATC audio playing in the background. He was wrong in what he did but I had to voice this opinion. I hope that this finds you well and safe, We apologize for the delay in response. Not for nothing, but shes only got 2 guys in the area, coulda cleared him through. Any follow up on this? Always good to receive a reminder that your pilot may be a nut case and we can just hope we never find out if s/he is or not. Thank you for your attached FOIA request. Me - knowing said student thought oh ##@@. The tower controller likely doesn't care, as he won't be handling it. This pilot penatrated that airspace at what appears to have been approximately 4800. Sort it out on the ground, or declare an emergency: pilot is an ass. He never said he was unable to exit the Bravo due to terrain like he told the supervisor. Where do I go on the Net to get ATC chatter at RDU? She didn't take the high road when he became argumentative. If the worst were to happen, people could lose their lives due to pilot deviation, which is not something that anyone wants to have on their conscience. 2) If he claims some kind of medical condition, goodbye medical certificate. Neil Wilsonthe CFIIsays "maybe the controller was playing her class BRAVO authority a little too far".. You should not be a CFII with that kind of attitude. 2 Letter from FAA notifying an investigation is underway, privileges may be suspended or curtailed until investigation is over. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Pilot deviation can leave passengers, crew, and people on the ground in danger. But generally, we want what is best (safest as well as most enjoyable) for the users. The owner of that plane holds a Commercial Pilot Certificate. Making excuses for people gets others killed. Time that controller needed for other pilots who HAD to be in the Class B. I can't believe anyone would defend his behavior Is it that hard to skirt around or over it? "Abraham Lincoln, letter to H.L. Subject: FOIA 2020-007191WP DUE: 8/6/2020, 411A Highland AvenueSomerville, MA 02144-2516, Subject: Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) Request 2020-007191WP. But it's not an excuse for the way he talked to the controller. There's many, many reason why a plane is not allowed into Bravo space. I'm very impressed that he could do all that. What almost everyone here is saying is correct (save for the C who ragged on GA pilots - the kind that most ATPS once were in order to get to where they are today- B!). I've been given instructions that I don't agree with. Shesa credit to the profession. He exercised his PIC. I live in Las Vegas. We dont delight in getting them in trouble. I'm only going this way because something in his demeanor smells like something else is at play. Indeed: N731NR - Aircraft Registration Information D DankVectorz Legendary Member FAA Messages 1,895 Facility N90 New York Tracon Jun 25, 2020 #6 Phillyman2633 said: What the cuck? I know this Controller and she is good at her job. The few concerns about behavior affected by incipient tumor or hypoxia bring back memories. This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. He had to pass my father's exam before IP could sign off on him. Having been a pilot for over 50 years let me assure you this pilot will receive more than a you shouldnt do that anymore. Turns out he's a slumlord, "supplement" pill pusher, and owns a "wealth generation" company. This notice provides new procedures for investigating pilot deviations (PD), and completing FAA Form 8020-18, Investigation of Pilot Deviation Report by certificate-holding district offices (CHDO), Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO), and certificate management offices (CMO) with oversight of air carrier operators certificated under Information Mike current at Henderson, they're landing 35"N731NR: [inaudible]. He SHOULD lose his cert for He refuses to leave airspace even though he never had clearance to fly through it, and he refuses to take down a number because hes flying., Hopefully an investigation is done and this guy loses his license. Controllers can order pilots to leave airspace for many reasons but the pilot is refusing to follow the order. This is usually in the following format: (Aircraft identification) POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION, ADVISE YOU CONTACT (facility) AT (telephone number). That kind of thing happens every day. Official websites use .govA .gov website belongs to an official government organization in the United States. Not buying the sick daughter excuse. This was a blatant disregard of regulations after being told to exit the Class B. Or . The problem is with dangerous attitude. That's the whole point of talking to you.". All I can say is ATC should be paid for saving people's lives!!!!! For those that don't want to read. I'll give you the number when you're ready to copy. She refuses and he petulantly retorts back. Im flying.. If N1NR requested clearance but did not hear back from ATC, they would have to repeat the request as they cannot assume what ATC heard; however, it is highly unlikely that even if ATC heard the request they would allow N1NR clearance into Bravo. twitter.com/journo_anon Public Records Requester. Your participation in helping us identify both our strong and weak points will help us improve our service(s) to all our stakeholders. The wheels of justice grind slowly but they do grind - Ken White (a lawyer and a good one). As well as this, any pilot in command that deviates from an ATC clearance in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory should notify the ATC of the deviation as soon as possible. He responds he requested clearance previously. Humans make mistakes sometimes its not a reason to bully somebody. Just like the American pilots did when they couldn't get runway 31 at JFK. He did request a clearance. When Can You Deviate From an ATC Clearance? Pilot deviation is when the actions of the pilot result in the violation of a Federal Aviation Regulation or a North American Aerospace Defense Command Air Defense Identification Zone tolerance. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. The Cessna P210N stall speed is 67 knots. Attached you will find the Acknowledgment Letter in response to your Freedom of Information Act request. The ONLY reason aviation is the safest form of transportation is precisely because everything is taken so seriously. Let the appropriate agency (the FAA) handle this. Happens every day, but not usually with the drama that this knucklehead exhibited A few weeks ago a commercial pilot blew through the O'hare Bravo - ATC kept trying to gently help him by repeating the local altimeter reading thinking he might check his altitude by the 3rd time he offered it, but eventually just had to notify the errant pilot and provide him with a phone # to call. This guys ego trip does not trump the lives of the flying public and those on the ground who live under the pattern. I think by "Airforce" [sic] you're thinking of all those movies you've seen. But if we want to affect change, we need to do it safely and respectfully. . The best way to ensure that you do not get in any trouble is to stay vigilant, follow the rules, and file a report if you know that an error has occurred on your behalf. Maybe, just maybe this controller was playing her Bravo authority a little too far? Otherwise he'll have his license yanked in *very* short order. He's going to find it hard for anyone to swallow his excuses. It should be a few hundred. 08:47PM EDT Montreal-Trudeau - YUL. When you have 2 F-16s or 2 F-15s escorting you that should bring sense into your head faster than having the nerve to argue. ATC is trying to direct traffic and Mr Wachner regardless of a possible misunderstanding says to hell with you I'm doing what I want. This isnt a slap on the wrist type of offense. Or the one over "Isnt the airspace over international airports congested (and dangerous) enough without these general aviation Cesena clowns and the Harrison Fords of the world putting the rest of us at risk? All I do is shake my head and smile. "This guy might just be the most negligent pilot ever in terms of how he ignores instructions." Privacy Policy. Go get him FAA!!! Have you ever said anything nasty to somebody else on the ground or anywhere? People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and dont get their license suspended. I've gotta jump on the bandwagon in wondering "just what the heck 'Karen' was thinking" when she told the 99.9999999% of commentors on this site to get the "sticks out of their asses". - file an IFR (instrument flight rules) flight plan that gives you the same priority as airline traffic. I won't belabor those points. First, when aviation is involved we ALL give a f. People's lives are at risk. After that Dad called a friend in the FAA out of the STP and reported the now private pilot as a hazzard and requested a re examination. Interceptions are dangerous and that jet blast and thrust from either twin thrust (F-15) or single thrust (F-16) could put the Cessna into a dangerous condition. But I'd recommend against posting it, even if that person turns out to be the idiot in question. You don't get to tar the rest of us with his brush. She kept phoning her father, a MD in LA and complaining about her mistreatment and threatening everybody with lawsuits. PS: The trauma was from being hit with luggage that fell out of the overhead upon disembarking. It was quite a [emailprotected]## show. Almost everybody agrees the jerk was wrong and dangerously so. Anyone flying under VFR (Visual Flight Rules) needs to hear the words You are cleared to enter the Bravo airspace before entering the Bravo airspace. This pilot should have been arrested and given a breathalyzer upon landing. The ONLY reason aviation is the safest form of transportation is precisely because everything is taken so seriously. When Can I Apply For Student Pilot Certificate? "N731NR (angrily): "I'm not ready to copy. This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. How much you want to bet this pilot is one of the people who refuse to wear a mask? Second, yes, people make mistakes, and when someone tells you "Hey you made a mistake here's how to correct it" you do just that. ATC "OK, state reasons please". 24 votes, 30 comments. If you are in trouble for pilot deviation, the results could be very bad. With respect to my comment above (cant edit), delete the word email from the comment (next to last word). (Apologies if external links aren't allowed.). saturn in ardra nakshatra pada 2 n731nr pilot deviation. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Alan BillingsFOIA Business AnalystFederal Aviation Administration AFN-400(O) 202-267-6352alan.billings@faa.gov, Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Act Request: FAA records for N731NR. I thought I was cleared, I have an ill 6 year old on board. The pilot violated the FARs and FSDO needs to take appropriate action. And in any case, if the ATC says you need to get out of the airspace, you do it. Is there an issue? Shout out to Capt. Not a cool move on his part. document.getElementById( "ak_js" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); He violated Bravo airspace. For purposes of these compilations, a regulated aviation entity holds a certificate issued by the FAA, (e.g., air carrier operating certificate, repair station certificate, pilot school certificate, airport operating certificate) or is a foreign air carrier or other aviation entity regulated under Part 129 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, 14 CFR Part 129. I know what he did was wrong but I understand his frustration. He endangered so many people. As promised, the final portion of the FOIA response concerning N731NR (the guy who busted Las Vegas class B). The compilation is based on data from the agency's Enforcement Information System ( EIS ). ALL pilots know you have to hear the magic words, Cleared into Brovo. .. If you do receive a brasher warning, you should know that you do not have to call the provided telephone straight away, and you are allowed to take some time to think about the situation that has occurred. This letter acknowledges receipt of your FOIA request dated May 27, 2020, regarding any accident, investigation, pilot deviation reports, legal enforcement actions, or FSDO records, regarding a possible pivot deviation on June 20, 2020 where N731NR may have entered Bravo airspace without clearance. The belligerent behavior of the pilot with the controller and the sound of his voice makes me wonder if this might have been suffering from mild hypoxia. Las Vegas class B is the only one Ive flown close to when I was on flight following trying to get into Henderson and they told me to squak 1200 and see ya. There are riots. She should have vectored him out after he refused. I too am amazed at the next tower's apology. I would have made up some BS like instruments or alternator. See more about our ethics policies here. Hundreds could have died. Although VASAviation transcribed it as "you're being that," it sounded to me more like this pilot started to retort with, "YOU'RE being an ass--", then caught himself and said, "That is not appropriate language.". Unfortunately, that's not what happened. First of all, I've never gotten one, and don't plan to get one. To check up on N1NR 's claim that he requested clearance there was only one conversation between N1NR and ATC that was seven minutes prior. 800 Independence Avenue, SW This guy has absolutely no business being in command of an automobile, much less an aircraft in class B airspace. The information contained in this record should be the most current Airworthiness information available in the historical aircraft record. In other words, his head was so far up his ass Either way, whether medical or psychological, the solution is the same - he shouldnt have a license. As well as this, you might want to consider making a call to an aviation attorney before you call the number that you have been provided with. Only then did he comply with instructions. Most helpful comments ( as chosen by the OMAAT community ). The company is owned by Jeff Wachner, a real estate agent in Southern California. I was interested in being a Pilot but it shocks me how awful other pilots can be, they even revert to ganging up or saying a terrible thing because of a mistake another pilot made as if they "the great one" has never made a mistake in their life. Looks like he was below 6000 the whole time. Unfortunately we are unable to move forward with your request until we have a name. I don't care where people get frustrated. When approach calls tower about a deviation, they may or may not give details. Can A Private Pilot Fly As A Sport Pilot. (Identification) POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION ADVISE YOU CONTACT (facility) AT (telephone number). He did not damage anybody.